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Of Relic and Hardcoding.
noodle
This is something I've wondered for quite awhile, actually since the game first came out so long ago (seriously? 5 years? kill me now, I'm getting to damn old).

I have in my possession an old copy of PC Gamer. And in this issue they previewed HW2, and had a nice interview with Alex Garden. In it they asked him about the moddability of HW2, given that HW1 was widely modded, but was absurdly limited in what you could actually change.

His response was that HW2 would be much more modifiable, and they would give lots of support and tools etc etc. My question: whatever happened with that? Now, PDS is awesome, and you guys have done a hell of a job, but it seems an awful lot of stuff is sorta...I don't know...it's like you've had to trick the game into doing what you want, rather than simply being able to do it straight.

And somethings, like the UI, seem totally hard coded, which for a mod like this is frankly unacceptable. I mean, how can we be expected to devise complex orders of battle and tactics when we have only 3 formations to choose from? And I also find it amusing that all ships, including hulking capital ships, apparently have the ability to lay mines...

I digress, is the (in)ability to mod the game simply yet another in the long list of HW2 features that ended up being casualties of it's less than desirable production cycle? Or did they just not think?
Haruhi is my God(dess).
 
TelQuessir
There is no support for antimissile fire except through bluffing the game that the ships are clearing mines. The main flaw of the game is the lack of finished attention to detail and thats what I put back, love it or hate it.
Returned to active duty 021108
 
noodle
Not to bring this up again...ok, yes actually, exactly to bring this up again. Looking through several other HW2 mods, I have seen that more things can be done with the engine than I previously thought.

I sight mainly the Complex mod. They seem to have actually found a way to mod the UI and even (of biggest interest to me personally) got formations to work and added in game. Finally, the feared claw has returned!

Not to wax poetic about a rival mod (are they really rivals? seems to me modding is generally a rather friendly medium), but from what I've seen the Complex mod has what PDS is often lacking in: polish.

PDS is great, but often seems a bit rough around the edges.
Edited by noodle on 03-02-2008 00:55
Haruhi is my God(dess).
 
Tristan
Then help "polish" PDS?

Complex is done by a strict team of Italian, professional modders. The fact that PDS has done so much as an international hobby shared by a couple individuals is incredible. And the vast majority of its implementation has only been made possible because of Tel's blood, sweat and tears.

If you feel the scope PDS encompasses is too 'limited', that's the entire reason why we have this forum. And the entire reason why lua is such a simple language to understand. You can modify PDS any way you want, and announce your results here, and we can try it out, and see if it'd work in the game.

As gorgeous and awesome as Complex is, it's not the reason why I fell in love with Homeworld 2.

PDS is.
 
Homdax
My question: whatever happened with that?

HW2 did not sell as well as HW1 and did, sadly, not provide Relic with the time and money to fulfil all promises. Not to mention the release was rushed by VUG/Sierra.
king-o'da'bigfile
 
noodle
See, I didn't know Complex was done by professionals. This explains much. Nor did I wish to offend, I was just saying...

Also, I would gladly mod HW2...except I have no modding skills whatsoever.

However, has anyone considered emailing one of the Complex modders to see if they'd be willing to reveal how they did some of the stuff they've done? Like adding formations.
Haruhi is my God(dess).
 
TelQuessir
Unlike some.. or rather all other mod teams we stick to our own resources and capabilities. And don't care if the mod next door had made counter-strike in HW2. I don't even play other mods for gods sake!
Returned to active duty 021108
 
noodle
Maybe you should, if only to see how others are doing. Professional game makers do that all the time.
Haruhi is my God(dess).
 
TelQuessir
Nope, I'm a traditionalist. I stick to my guns ^^ And the rest don't exist! I'm not competing, I'm collaborating. Pity no one else sees that.
Returned to active duty 021108
 
noodle
How can you be collaborating when you don't even pay attention to othe HW2 mods?:hmm:
Haruhi is my God(dess).
 
Tristan
I'm split. Part of me sees the potential PDS could have if it incorporated all of the open-source models and FX and SFX, and other theories.

Then another part of me sees how unique PDS has become as an individual entity. And how revolutionary its implementations are.

So, there are pros and cons to both sides.
 
noodle
I'm not saying to jeopardize the unique vision of PDS. I'm just saying how could it hurt to get coding tips and such from other mod teams?

I'll say again, some of the stuff the Complex guys have done would really help to make PDS even better. I mean, come on, how can you have a "realistic" fleet-based space combat simulator without even a useful selection of formations?
Haruhi is my God(dess).
 
Homdax
Hokay, careful guys.
Any kind of cooperation requires an agreement on what code/models can and can not be used. I think bot Tel and Beghins are very well aware of that, and its complicated with these mods. The amount of work is huge and that would reflect upon any kind of coop discussion.

Its NOT as easy as you think...IMO
king-o'da'bigfile
 
TelQuessir
Thats why we play our own games. It's a simple solution and it works perfectly.
Returned to active duty 021108
 
Tristan
Well, to be fair, there is a ton of open-source content out there that's not being used by PDS. Like, none of Modernization is being used. And that has a ton of high-quality content.
 
FinalSeraphim
What tel is trying to say is, This not PDs and Modernization.

This is pure PDS, something tel and any who helps him can show for, originality. nothing borrowed, nothing other than our own effort and joy into our own open mod. We are not a hybrid who uses others work, we may admire them, and ofcourse if you are good enough yourself or pay someone for it, you can obviously mod, the mod, to what you desire, but what the point of tels post is, and my own is,

we do this, we roleplay, we work, we plan, we build and create these worlds for our own purpose. We do not borrow others ideas, we make our own, we have our own, we show our own. This is Tels mod, and he doesn't want that diluted. You should Respect that, it's not alot to ask for.
I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
 
noodle
Seems like pretty poor arguments. When you look at the mother of all modding communities, the Half-Life/Half-Life 2/Source one, there's all kinds of cooperation and sharing going on.

What I want to know is who exactly established these rather arbitrary standards and rules? And for the last time, I said nothing of copying or borrowing anyone else's code or models or whatever. I'm simply saying, whats wrong with asking another mod team if they'd be willing to tell you how they did something that you yourself can't figure out.

If you never even consider doing that, than that, frankly, is xenophobia of the worst kind, and is in my opinion far more damaging to the mod than any potential allegations of theft.
Haruhi is my God(dess).
 
FinalSeraphim
Eh, I guess that explains why they did so good for years! lol. Perhaps the answer you're looking for is, Maybe it's the thrill of finding things out for yourself. Borrowed information is not you learning, it's you just using. And honestly, Nothing I've seen, other than certain models, are really worth using in the mod. It's originality that sets us apart.


I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
 
noodle
*sigh*

Yeah, being told how to do things is useless. Guess all those game makers who go to things like GDC right? For the last tim- oh...fuck it, clearly no one cares.
Haruhi is my God(dess).
 
FinalSeraphim
Wow man, You just aren't getting the point.

Here's your point.

You want us to use other peoples work and mold it to fit our situation.

Here's our point.

We don't wanna use others work but rather be seen for our own innovation and mindset. Why only be known for a few little things, when you can be known for one amazing big thing.

Note to noodle.

I respect your ideas, don't get me wrong, but it's not what we want, it's not the mindset that made this mod so great. it was the blood sweat and tears of individuals doing it their way, for a single purpose. not a conglomeration of different teams picking and choosing from a pool of open source crap.
I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
 
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